Battery drain

[sevenslats]

I'm still having dead batteries evey morning in my ZJ. With my Camry in the shop for power steering leaks, this is even more annoying.

Here's a summary of what I know so far.
When I pull the Ignition-Off Draw (IOD) fuse #15 from the PDC under the hood, my battery doesn't drain.
According to my FSM, this fuse feeds 1) The PCM. 2) Fuses 13,16,19,20,21 in the Junction Block (the fuse panel inside the Jeep). 3) CB 3 in the Junction Block.
I've pulled CB3 and ran without intermittent wipers for 1 day, and the battery was still dead, I'm pretty sure.
I've pulled fuse 21 and ran without a 12VDC power outlet for a day, and the battery was still dead.
I've pulled fuse 20 and ran without the radio for a day, and the battery was still dead.
I've pulled fuse 19 and ran without flash-2-pass for a day, and the battery was still dead, I'm pretty sure.
I've pulled fuse 16 and ran without interior lights for a day, and the battery was still dead.
I've pulled fuse 13 and ran without turn signals for a day, and the battery was still dead, I'm pretty sure.
At one point last month I unhooked the PCM at connector C140. For a few days I thought this had fixed it. But it turns out I was fooled by my inoperative door switch. With the door switch not working, the IOD cycle was never intitated.

I suppose there's a chance that I have a draw on another circuit than IOD, but I do know for a fact that pulling Fuse #15 in the PDC keeps my battery from dying overnight.

Kelly, got any insight?
I'm not going to be able to get any time on this before 31 March, so if you have some advice that'd be great.

[sevenslats]

Yeah, yeah...
It's a 97 Jeep Grand Cherokee with the 4.0, 42 RE, NP 242

[sevenslats]

Here's my thread on AO when I was working it before.
http://www.arcticoffroad.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8138



akdsmer27 Dec 08 10:57 am


Quote:
Originally Posted by sevenslats (Post 91574)
I've got a drain on my ZJ I'm trying to track down rightnow myself.

I've already pulled each individual fuse for all my aftermarket accessories, but the battery is still dead after about 2 days.

To find the draw, Turn off everything you can, disconnect the negative terminal of the battery and put a test light between the terminal and the cable. If it is lit, then there is a draw. Remove one fuse at a time until the light goes out. If you have removed all the fuses there are still draws such as your cheesily installed electronics and the alternator. Disconnect those. If there is still a draw, then you have a hidden one and will require disconnecting harness connectors to track the drain, but start there. Of couse, substituting an ammeter for a test light would be even better as it will show the exact change in the draw as you remove a circuit. Very handy when you are dealing with multiple small draws.



sevenslats30 Dec 08 11:00 pmRe: Project Resurrection


Okay, so I did the test today. I hooked up my DMM and it showed zero draw.
I hooked up my test light, and it lit right up. It only took me 45 minutes to realize it was an LED test light, and the brightness doesn't vary. So I dug out my spare test ligth. Found the 50A fuse under the hood that caused the bulb to go out. Kept fishing and found the 20A fuse under the dash as well.
Now this stupid circuit goes everywhere. Body Control Module (does who-knows-what), Instrument cluster (idiot lights), Auto headlights (which I don't have), Data Link connector (I assume this is only powered up when a scan tool is connected), and the OEM stereo amp (which was removed by a previous owner, or was optional on this model).

I guess I'm down to pulling harness connectors



akdsmer30 Dec 08 11:59 pmRe: Project Resurrection


Replace your ammeter fuse in the meter and make sure 1 lead is in the COM plug and the other is in the 10(or whatever)A plug.

So do both fuses remove the draw is it only the 20A under the dash. Let me know which fuse it is and I'll get you closer. Make sure you check for the unobvious draws such lights in the visors and silly things like that. Also, many of the modules will stay on for a time before shutting down, so you may have to wait up to 45 minutes before they will shut down.

My way- hook up the meter (the one with the good fuse in it) and measure current draw. Wait an hour and see if it or how much goes away. Then start pulling fuses and look for each successive drop. A test light works, but the meter is SO much more accurate.



sevenslats01 Jan 09 03:01 pmRe: Project Resurrection


Both. #11 at the PDC under the hood, and #7 at the fuse block.

Here's where I am this afternooon.
I'm still using my trusty test light.
I pulled the 2 connectors in my schematic. The one to the stereo amp wasn't it. It was the other. So I traced down the line. Not the BCM, I don't have auto headlights, and there's nothing plugged into the OBD connector.
Digging deeper in the wiring diagrams, C200 also feeds the cigar lighter, intermittent wipers, sunroof (not installed), 4x4 indicator lamps, instrument cluster, auto headlights, turn signal/hazard switch.
I removed the instrument cluster, that didn't stop the draw.
I removed the 4x4 indicators and the cigar lighter, that didn't stop the draw.
I still don't have auto headlights.
Next step is to disconnect the steering wheel connector which will eliminate the wipers circuit.

I'm stumped and my interior is in 44 pieces.



sevenslats01 Jan 09 05:33 pmRe: ZJ electrical drain (split thread)


I left all the doors open for an hour or so while I worked on some other things. Now My test light doesn't go completely out when I pull C200 like it did before. I had been opening and closing doors as needed before, I really hope all the work I did this morning wasn't based on the courtesy lamp control draw. Makes it hard to believe since the battery was disconnected that whole time anyway.
I ohm-checked the fuses in the DMM using itself, and they don't seem blown. I still can't measure any amperage drain.



akdsmer01 Jan 09 06:55 pmRe: ZJ electrical drain (split thread)


Phoned and discussed the situation.

Please note that when testing for a load on a vehicle with electronic controls, you need to first install your tester in series with the negative cable, open the doors and disable the door switches by compressing the door switches (they make clever tools for that-or use a block of wood), or if the switches are integrated into the latches, close the latches with a screwdriver or such. DO NOT DISTURB THESE CIRCUITS UNTIL YOU ARE DONE TESTING. You then need to wait at least 45 minutes to let the modules go to sleep. Now if you have a large draw, you can start chasing it down right away, but don't be looking for a 1A draw until you let it shut itself down completely.

Also, when testing, I recommend using an ammeter so that you can watch for 1) the presence of a draw, 2) the size of the draw, and 3) whether you are adding (by turning something on) or subtracting from the current draw. If you are using a test light, once you have reached the full current needs of the test light (>1A) you cannot see any changes in the current flow.



akdsmer02 Jan 09 10:16 amRe: ZJ electrical drain (split thread)


Geoff does have an external draw, so that should be tested first. I spoke with Geoff about the likely devices and those include relays. That was another reason why I told Geoff to use a meter-a meter will tell you the amperage draw and that is helpful in determining the component not turning off. Most auto relays run about 250mA (control side). It is common enough to have a electronic device have a ground side controlled circuit stick on.



sevenslats02 Jan 09 08:48 pmRe: ZJ electrical drain (split thread)


It's not my DD. I'm pimpin a Camry. Surprisingly nice, for 12 years old and free.
The battery was new in the spring. I though that was the problem at first, so I warranteed Nate's $15 red-top to Sams Club in Boise. This one's doing the same thing. Shoulda got a blue top, then I wouldn't be worried about the frequent discharges.
I forgot to get the working ammeter from work today. I probably won't have time to work it until Tuesday anyways.

Thanks again for the phone-in, Kelly. Good to hear from you.



sevenslats08 Jan 09 03:10 pmRe: ZJ electrical drain (split thread)


I borrowed a DMM and got a couple measurements before I broke it. Going shopping for some fuses pretty soon.
I had opened up all the doors for about an hour before starting.

This particular FLuke DMM had either 30A or 300mA settings. I was getting 0.00 on the 30A, and O.L on the 300 mA. I pulled fuse 11 at the PDC and it dropped to 203.6 mA. I left that out, because it gave me a useable reading, and pulled fuse 15. my meter dropped to 5 mA. I put fuse 15 back in, and it stayed at 5 mA.
At this point, I relaized that the door switches were not in te latch like I thought, and I fut clamps on them to trick the Jeep into thinking the doors were closed. Now my DMM quit working. I went inside to warm up and read some schemetics.

Kelly, any ideas?



sevenslats09 Jan 09 03:03 pmRe: ZJ electrical drain (split thread)


My drain has drained away.

I replaced the big fuse in my meter and was measuring a 200mA draw for 15 sec after the doors "closed". then it dropped to 3 mA.
Weird.
Still need to find a source for the little fuse- 250V, 200mA.



AKMark09 Jan 09 09:44 pmRe: ZJ electrical drain (split thread)


Yet again, another reason I sold my ZJ.

My problems were tied into the factory alarm, which I grounded, and no more drains, misc honking for no reason, and no more fuel pump stoppage during wheeling.



sevenslats10 Jan 09 08:39 amRe: ZJ electrical drain (split thread)


No power antenna on mine.
ANd if it had a factory alarm, it was removed/disarmed when the PO put in a Viper alarm/remote start.



AKMark10 Jan 09 10:47 amRe: ZJ electrical drain (split thread)


Are you sure? There's only really one way to do it. To find out for sure, shut all doors except the driver's, then lock them with the power lock. Close the driver's door, if the word security lights up on the dash, your alarm is still active.



akdsmer10 Jan 09 11:18 amRe: ZJ electrical drain (split thread)


Depending upon how they disabled it, you could still be powering up the VTA (vehicle theft alarm) relay. That would cause a ~250mA draw. Of course, if you called me (now it will have to be this evening), you would know these things...:cool:

The large #11 fuse should only be powering up the Blower motor and the engine starter relay. If it's draw returns, then you should be able to disconnect these two devices one at a time to see which removes the draw. Weird that I was staying on, although newer vehicles will re-energize the blower motor to pull air through the AC evaporator to prevent mold and stink at various times when the vehicle is off.

[sevenslats]

Reading back through all that, I should maybe go back and look at #11 in the PDC again. I haven't broken out the DMM in over a month.

[The Bronze]

Yep, you need to put the ammeter inline so that you can "see" how much current is being used, not what makes the "battery dead". It could be a combination of items. I still have your wiring diagram here, so put the ammeter inline and lets start narrowing it down.

[sevenslats]

I won't be able to do that until the 30th. Going out of town Saturday for a week.

Something weird to note.
Yesterday I pulled fuse 18 in the junction block because it was supposed to be a spare. Turns out my tail lights go through that one. ??!

[sevenslats]

I should be packing. :cool:

No dead battery when fuse 13 is pulled (turn signals).
Here's some of my notes from last time


>300mA
pull fuse 15, 203mA
pull fuse 11, 5mA


I assume I was pulling those from the PDC.


I also have detailed, non-complete notes about c200 at the fuse panel. Makes me think I was chasing something there. Ironicaly, the turn signals go through c200. :confused:

[sevenslats]

I've had the VIAIR disconnected for a while. no effect.
I downloaded the manuals for my alarm/remote start and disconnected that at some point also. no effect.
I just unhooked a trailer light control module that my father-in-law had installed at Arctic RV. The more I think about it, this is about the same time I started having dead batteries.

FWIW, I also figured out the door-lock dilema. Remember the NPHS DRB scan tool you used on my ZJ at Kev's one night to try to fix this thing? Turns out the default was in the Viper alarm system all along. :2thumbs: Now I just need the battery to stay charged so the Viper doesn't loose it's memory and go back to auto-locks.:cryrub:

[sevenslats]

It seems my battery has decided I took too long to fix this.
I left the POS on charge all night last night. It started right up this morning, but after a 20-minute drive, and a 5-7 minute rest, it was too dead to start the Jeep.

Grrr. I should have bought a yellow-top.

[sevenslats]

bump
still trying to fix this irritating problem.

I decided my battery is toast. Won't even hold a charge. So I've got the battery jumpstarter pack hooked up while I troubleshoot. If that does not lead anywhere, I'll borrow the Camry battery until I fix the drain. I don't want to put a new battery in there until the problem is resolved.

Looking back through my notes I found a flaw. CB3 is for power & heated seats. I don't even have a CB in that slot. I had been pulling CB1.

My 45 minutes for IOD isn't up yet, but fuse 16 seems to have the biggest effect on the test light brightness. I also have a clicking sound coming from the Junction Block area in teh passenger kick panel. When I pull fuse 16 it stops clicking.
If you've forgotten, fuse 16 is for the interior lights.

I'm going to look for my test light while my 45 minutes runs down.

[sevenslats]

My DMM was being dumb. The idiot-proof guard that covers the mA probe socket when the mode switch is in A was jammed. I disassembled the meter and removed the guard. I also checked the fuses in the meter. the 200mA fuse is blown but the 20A fuse is still good. So I hooked it up, double checking where the probe was supposed to be. As soon as I got a good connection on the battery + and the disconnected cable -, the starter clicked.:eek::cuss:

[sevenslats]

Allright, I hit a wall and I need some professional assistance.

All the circuits mentioned in post #1 of this thread are the IOD curcuit/fuse # 15 in the PDC under the hood. This is where I started my troubleshooting today. I hooked the test light inbetween the battery neg term and the disconnected neg cable. I was watching the light bulb each time I pulled fuses/connectors to see if the bulb went out or went dim. I was working for 2.5 hours, so I'm sure the IOD was shut down.
After chasing my tail in the fuse 15 circuit, I realized this was not drawing enough to drain the battery.
Back under the hood to the PDC I went. Fuse #11, the TOW/MUX circuit turned off the test light completely. Fuse 11 feeds fuses 7,8,9 and CB2 in the Junction (Fuse) Box. Pulling CB2 (driver and pass. door modules) had no effect on the brightness of the bulb. Fuse 9 (stop lamp switch) had no effect on the brightness of the bulb. Fuse 8 (trailer tow circuit, liftglass) had no effect on the brightness of the bulb. My ZJ did not have a factory tow package and does not have a liftglass. Fuse 7 (Body module, inst. cluster, OBDII connnector, and auto headlight/VTSS LEDs) turned out the bulb.
Okay, Fuse 7 feeds the BCM at the drivers knee panel. I disconnected , connector C241 and the light stayed on. Fuse 7 feeds the inst cluster. I removed it, and the light stayed on. There's nothing plugged into the OBDII. AFAIK there is no VTSS & auto headlights on this vehicle. I tore off the top dash piece where the sensor/LED should be. I could not see any wiring up there and there is obviously no glass dome protruding abouve the dash plastic.

I'm at a loss. I traced everything my FSM points to. There's got to be something more that this circuit feeds. I guess I could throw some $$ at the BCM and see what happens?

[The Bronze]

If you have premium sound, the power amplifier for your stereo (under the rear seat I believe) is also powered off Fuse 7. Pull Connector 1.

[The Bronze]

I also don't see where disconnecting C241 removes power from the BCM. C4 at the junction box or C2 at the BCM. Of course, I couldn't find C241 (although I did find C242, C243, C245 and so on).

Call me back sucka.

[sevenslats]

Oh yeah, my cell (350 prefix) is turned off. you have to call the 832 prefix #.


I do not have premium sound. I slid the stereo out of the dash last night to check its wiring. All looked okay. my stereo is powered off fuse 20.

i don't know that C241 is the power for the BCM. But my diagram shows that C241 connects the junction box to the BCM.

In the FSM it's a 18ga violet wire coming out of the junction box connector C200, colored natural (tan-ish, IMO) to BCM C241, colored white.

My illustration of the BCM shows 9 connectors. front row = 1, 4 other rows = 2 ea. It's the second row from the front (rear of the vehicle), on the left.

In C241 is 24 pins. light sensor, radio control MUX, wiper park sense, interior lamp relay control, A/C select input, along with others. I only listed the first few.

Would it help if I put up pictures of what I can see / do?

[sevenslats]

okay, my electrical engineer took a look at my notes and pointed something out.

The last point at which my test light went out was C200 leaving the JB.
I was only concerned with the 4 things shown in my schematic. These are the OBDII, inst. cluster, auto headlamp sensor/VTSS LED, and BCM connector C241. I had ruled all these out, and thought I was at a dead end.
Well, she led me to the section for C200's pin-out. Also in that connector is the 4x4 part-time indicator (In the VIC), C211. Also there is 3 Ignition switch output circuits, F86, F30, and A31. I'm not sure how far I have to follow those, as I don't recognize the term Ign Sw Out.
A31 feeds CB1, the cigar lighter relay, and Fuses 1,2,3 all in the JB.
F30 feeds the cigar lighter relay.
F86 feeds CB1 and the Intermittent wiper relay, all in the JB.

I'll go about pulling those items tomorrow when the sun comes up.

[sevenslats]

No go on C211. It's a pain to access, BTW.
Lighter relay, fuse 1,2,3 are all a no-go. I was unable to find a wiper relay in the JB, although I did pull a wiper relay in the PDC.
That leads to another dead end.
Back in post #11 Kelly mentions fuse #11 in the PDC. I don't know why, but I pulled it anyway. No change. Test light bulb still on. The last thing I can get to turn off the bulb is C200 at the JB.
I'm off to NAPA for bulbs since I have the dash torn apart.

[sevenslats]

I got my meter working, in A. But not mA. had to pull some fuses on the remote start, as it wanted to use the meter leads to start the Heep.

My instrument cluster, VIC, both 12V outlets, and glove box are removed at this point.
I'm losing 4.54 amps at normal state. This is with the interior lights on. When I reinstall fuse 7 the clock resets. There are 6 lights.
When I pull fuse 16 to turn these lights off, I draw 0.19A
If I also pull fuse 7, it drops to 0.03A.
With fuse 16 in and fuse 7 removed, it's 0.08A

[sevenslats]

Someone on a ZJ forum suggested measuring amp draw with the doors closed.
0.11 A. I had to open the rear hatch to get my meter out of the inside of the Jeep, but I don't think I tripped the IOD circuit.

Is there any way this could be the ODB II connector? I've overlooked it thus far.

[The Bronze]

Pin 16 is unswitched battery positive. Unless it was connected to something (like stereo or alarm system) it should have no effect. 110mA is too much. That is about half a dome light and we all know what that does to a battery overnight. You should definitely have under 50mA.

You do want all doors closed, lights off and such. Remember,you are trying to mimic how the vehicle rests normally. Roll your window down if you need access to the inside. Do not open and close your doors and such. Those may turn BCM and related circuits on, even if you don't see any visual evidence.

I really am swamped so I haven't had time to run this circuit down for you. Sorry. Maybe soon.

[sevenslats]

Pin 16 ???
C200 only has 10 pins.
Fuse 16 is my courtesy (interior) lights

[sevenslats]

I did some legowrk to see where C200 feeds. I may have missed some as I was doing this manually while watching TV.
doc is attached. Once it warms up above 0* I'll go do some tracing...

[naturalbornmudder]

your are in over my head with techno-babble, so all I can offer is a hearty "good luck"

[The_Ronster]

sounds like a problem that can be solved with 5 gallons of gas and a bic :D

What were you doing when the problem first started?

[The Bronze]

What were you doing when the problem first started?

You are such a dumb a s s. He was trying to start the jeep. :cool:

[The_Ronster]

Thats why you make the big bucks :NYA:

[The Bronze]

That's because I have to help people like you. :stooges:

[sevenslats]

Julie has also asked what was the last mod I did before it started happening. I can't recall. I would have to say the trailer light package Arctic RV installed in Summer 2007. But I'm not certain. I have, numerous times, removed that circuit from the Jeep to see if it was causing the drain and it was not.

[sevenslats]

I went out this afternoon and came up with this. The whole thing is so inconsistent its annoying.

I had to open the door to access the Junction Block. But I clamped the door switch closed. I tried rolling down the window like you suggested, but most of the stuff I need to test is inside the rig.

Normal state was .16
removed C200 and it went to .05
reinstalled C200 and it was .16 for 1 min, then went to .03!!!!!!!
pulled fuse 7, no change.
reinstalled fuse 7; .18 for 1 min, then .03!!!!!!!
C201; .18 for 1 min, then .03!!!!!!!
C318; .18 for 1 min, then .03!!!!!!!
opened door; 4.45 for 3-4 min (lights on) then .17 for 1 min, then .03!!!!!!!
reinstalled VIC, no change. pulled C318; .18 for 1 min, then .03!!!!!!!
reinstalled cigar lighter, no change. pulled C318; .18 for 1 min, then .03!!!!!!!
reinstalled inst. cluster. .19 for 1 min, then .05 for 1 min, then .03!!!!!!!
reseated C318; .18 for 1 min, then .03!!!!!!!

So today it seemed to work okay. I do remember back on 3/19/09 that when I reseated a connector on the PCM my draw was "normal".

[sevenslats]

warranteed my red-top today.

Got home from Nampa and measured draw with the interior reassambled and a new batt.
0.2 A for 1 min
.06 A for 1 or 2 min
.04 A for a long time.

Is 0.04 A managable? Or should I be worried still?